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Re: Unpatriotic Draftdogers
Posted By: Sam, on host 209.187.117.100
Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 14:31:23
In Reply To: Re: Unpatriotic Draftdogers posted by Sigi on Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 11:54:27:

> My position on this is that I wouldn't ever want to kill anyone (I reckon the Seventh Commandment means "Do not kill someone, for any reason" although I know some people don't agree with that - and there's enough of them to make a good enough army in case it's ever needed) and that I would conscientously object on those grounds.

If you are a pacifist and believe that it is wrong to kill anybody, for any reason, then I can't respect that at all. If, for example, someone came into your home, and you were faced with the choice between killing that person or letting that person burn your house down, rape your wife, and torture your children, and you choose the latter on "moral" grounds, then I would find that morally reprehensible and figure you probably deserved to be charged as an accomplice to the crimes of arson, rape, and torture at least. Sometimes this same principle carries over to the national scale. Osama bin Laden killed thousands of Americans, and, by his own admission, as long as he lives a free man, he will try to kill thousands more. If we can imprison him securely, that's one thing, but if it comes down to a choice between killing him or letting him get away to pursue further plans to take innocent lives, then, well, anybody faced with that choice better pull the trigger.

But if you're a pacifist, you're a pacifist, and that's one thing, but there is another:

If you're truly a pacifist, I hope that Bible commandment isn't the only justification you have of that position. I hate it when people take Bible verses out of context and form entire philosophies around them. If you're going to use the Bible to justify a personal philosophy, then use the WHOLE Bible. True, it says "thou shalt not kill," but a couple dozen verses later it says that murderers and rapists should be put to death. (Lest I start a capital punishment thread up again, THAT isn't all the Bible has to say either, because the New Testament has a lot to say about how much of the Old Testament Law still applies, now that Christ has come.) On the subject of wars, many times the Bible says that God instructed a nation or people to go to war against another for one reason or another; and at other times, God instructed people not to. The reasons aren't always given, though sometimes they are. At any rate, if you're going to adopt the Bible as a guide for personal philosophy of war, the Bible's lesson is that sometimes war is justified. Sometimes things get to the point where there are no other options besides going to war and doing nothing, and doing nothing is the greater of the two evils.

> Looking through some peoples' responses to this thread, a recurring theme (explicitly in Sam's case) is that serving one's country should always be the priority.

My post addressed that theme, you misread me if you think that's my view. My position was that service to one's country should be "a" priority but not (usually) "the" priority. Serving my country is high on my own list of priorities, but there are things I put ahead of it and others I put on a more or less equal level. God and my family come before my country every time, and I think that's the way it should be. Serving *myself* usually takes precedence, too, the exceptions being that (1) I wouldn't think it right to serve myself at the *expense* of my country, and (2) there are times, most notably in times of war, when serving one's country must temporarily take precedence.

As a broad generality (which excludes times of war), I think people are generally going to serve their countries best by doing what they are *personally* driven to do for themselves. This country needs military, government, spiritual leadership, business, arts & entertainment, public services, and many other things to function well. Things are generally going to work best when our soldiers *want* to be soldiers, and our businessmen *want* to be businessmen, and so forth.

> Although I disagree with some of the Roman Catholic Church's teaching, it did have this going for it: it transcended national boundaries (at least in the 1500s, my study period of history), making people feel that their allegiance was to the faith, and that this was the most important thing.

Placing God before one's country hardly distinguishes Catholicism from other religions. But you have a point. On this, I have no quarrel with Catholicism. My God comes before my country as well.

But my country is still significant factor. I think allegiance to one's country is something held in horrendously low regard today. I'm sorry, but if you are going to live in a country and enjoy its freedoms, protections, communities, and resources, you owe a debt to that country, and it doesn't stop with taxes.

> ...and if the entire world had become Communist (Trotsky's idea in the 1920s) there would be very few, if any, wars at all.

Ha.

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