... hmm. I don't seem to be very good at this clarifying thing, as apparently I've created even more confusion. Let's try this yet again.

> I hate this quotation, because it so badly misinterprets and misrepresents traditional Christian positions on these issues.

Nowhere in my post did I attack any religion, and I was very startled to find out that you'd read that quotation as an indictment of Christianity in particular. I'm very sorry that quotation offended you so, but it wasn't meant to at all. What you took as caricatures of Christian beliefs, I took as human abuses of religion in general. Whether they're supposed to or not, people sometimes *do* use the tenets of their religion (not necessarily Christianity, but it can be) to try to get God to do what they want, and so on and so forth, and many people *do* obey the tenets of said religion (again, possibly, but not necessarily, Christianity) out of a fear of punishment either on earth, in an afterlife, or in a successive life.

I agree with you, based upon my reading of the Bible, that ideal Christians would not fall into these traps, but Paul writes in Romans that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Still, I never said that this was the way that all Christians behave and I was surprised and a bit confused upon learning that you interpreted my post this way.

> Morality's relation to that "ancient book" is this; that the book is a direct revelation from God, and because God is all-knowing, he cannot fail to inform us of the correct and right thing to do, including loving our fellow men and women. If those beliefs are true, then it is perfectly reasonable to act in such ways because of the instructions given in a book. In either descriptive case, the ethical reasons beat out "I feel it is right" any day.

... I thought "I feel it is right" implied an ethical judgment. I'm really not sure what you mean here; please clarify it for me. (I think arguments about the divine inspiration of the Bible, etc. have been done to death on this forum, so I'll just let that part pass and we'll all be happier for it. ;))

> As far as doing what is right out of fear of punishment, only the most immature Christians act only or primarily because of such motivations.

See above.

> A more common, and more accurate, motivational attribution would be to say that Christians know God, and because God cares for humans and always does what is right, so we too are motivated by our love for God to love everything else He has made, and do that which pleases Him.

Okay, fair enough. Deists see an ordered universe, reason that there had to be a hand guiding the creation of said universe, and love both the gift we've been given and its giver. There's a similarity.

>But even for those who do what is right only out of fear of punishment, surely you don't believe that your own personal joy is a better motivation for doing right than fear?

Ah ... yes?

>If it is (and that is an open question, needing reasons to accept one motivation over the other) it does not seem that one vague and partially reasonable personal feeling is much better than another as a motivation for right action.

Would you rather go swimming because it's fun to splash in the water, or because someone is pointing a gun at your head and saying, "Get in the pool"?

> This statement:
> >Love God not so that God will do your bidding, but because you love the universe God gave you to explore
> is really not any better. Why should love of the universe motivate anyone to love God in any way?

The universe is a huge and incredible gift in its complexity and variety. I know I certainly didn't do anything to deserve even something as simple as the elm tree in my front yard. How can I be anything but grateful to and awestruck by the One who put all of this together?

> It follows the other way; if one loves God, one probably will take on the same loves He has, which include the universe and the people and creatures in it.

Not really. I still find it pretty difficult to love mosquitoes, even though I know God made them, too. ;)

> That, and only a badly misguided Christian would really believe that "loving" God would result in His "doing your bidding". Not only is the belief itself nonsense in its stated terms, it does not characterize the true motivations of anyone who actually loves God, as opposed to trying to bargain with Him.

See above, again.

> As to the final statement about death, I am not sure exactly what kind of "rest" deists believe there is after death. I am not entirely sure, if this is in fact your own belief, that there are many other deists who believe as you do. In either case, eternal reward is better than "rest" (whatever sense that is used in); eternal reward, as described by Christians, includes at a minimum the concept of rest from the trials, hard work, and pain of earthly life, which is at least as good as the rest you mention, however it is conceived.

You misunderstand me. I don't seek a rest after death, but in death itself. I don't know if there's anything at all after death; all I expect from it is a cessation of my presence on earth. I have no desire to live forever. There's a lot to be done in this life, and I'll do as much of it as I can. Eventually, my body will get worn out, and when it does, it will stop functioning, and that simple ending is all the rest I meant to imply by my inclusion of that section of the quote.

I hope that perhaps this time around, things are a bit clearer. If not, I'm willing to try again.

-Cynthia