> I don't know that it's always or even often the lack of ability, that makes people uncaring; or that they don't neccesarily know the difference between good and evil. Some people just prefer to chose evil. You can educate them all you want, they can possess the intellectual or emotional capability to care, but they just don't *want* to.

Apoligies; I never meant to imply that the attitude of uncaring is always based on not knowing the difference between good and evil, and I do realize that there are those who do know the difference quite well but, as you said, choose not to care because they don't want to. However -- I believe that it is possible for anyone to change...and that it is also possible to make *anyone* want to care. Now, what exactly it is that can bring about this change I can't say; I'm sure that it's different for every person. But I am sure that there is this potential for betterment in everyone.

> The problem is, though, is that the "caring group" and the "uncaring group" aren't static card-carrying entities that always fight for one side. I'm nice to old people, children, and dogs, but I've also been known to be mean, lazy, spiteful, envious, rude, dopey, grumpy, and sleepy. And, so have you. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 [oh, you *knew* I was going to throw in a Bible verse ;-)] And yet, we're both caring people, right? Aren't we the "good guys"?

Yes, of course none of us are perfect; not even remotely so. What I believe makes us the 'good guys' though is that we *try* to do, well, the 'right thing' and we strive towards perfection, even though we know that true perfection in ourselves is unattainable. We know this, but still we try. And it is this constant strive to become better that makes all the difference I think, and also what makes us caring people. Sure, there are periods where we are mean, rude, envious, etc.; we are, after all, only human ;-) But most of these periods don't last to long (relatively, of course) and seem to differ quite severly from what I would consider to be 'normal' me. Such periods are, of course, a part of me (after all, I make no claims to be even close to perfect), but they don't constitute the *main* part of me and I strive to have such periods as little as possible.

> Problem is, we're not "good enough" guys. I agree that *hope* is important for us to keep going, but it must be based on a firm foundation. I don't want to base my hope on a bunch of other people trying to do good in the world, because I know they are just like me. I know that though I'm usually well intentioned, I'm also inconsistent, unwise, ineffective--and so are they. Not a firm foundation. I would rather place my hope in an eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and *powerful* God and in His Christ, who won't neglect doing the right thing just because, for instance, blood sugar is running low, or it was a bad day at work.
>
> koalamom

We're not 'good enough' guys for what, or for whom? For God? Alright, I believe that to be true and won't argue there. For one must be perfect to be good enough for God (who, being perfect himself, can not tolerate those who are not perfect), and that is something that none of us are.

However, I do believe that we are 'good enough' guys to better ourselves and those around us. Of course, being unperfect ourselves we can not make the world perfect either, but that doesn't mean that we can't make it better then it is already, if only by a little bit. And even though those of us who strive towards perfection are indeed inconsistent, unwise, and ineffective sometimes, we are *usually* well intentioned...and I find that I can relate better to this state of "Not perfect, can't be perfect, but trying anyway" better then I could relate to a state of absolute perfection, which I have not experienced myself....which is why I place my own hope where I do. Though it may not be a perfect foundation, I do feel that it is strong enough for my hope to be justified. Now, I know that you probably don't agree with this because, well, simply because you're not the same person as me, but now you may be able to see where I'm comming from at least. And if not, well, this is one thread that I'd be happy to continue :-)

-Ka"I always enjoy conversations that make me *think* and give me a chance to see other points of view"z!