> > Now if you're talking about *God* influencing the possibility of change, then my confidence level goes way up, since He's in the business of changing hearts and has omnipotence and omniscience on His side ;-) He would seem the better bet. However, He did also give us free choice; which brings us back to the point that some people will *still* not make the choice to care. So if God can't "make" someone care who absolutely doesn't want to, I'm somewhat less optimistic that you and I can either.
>
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> Now I'm curious: How does one tell the difference between God making someone care and a human doing the same?

An interesting thought, but I must beg the question, and say, God isn't *making* anyone care, as per my comments on free choice above.
Influencing, exhorting, modeling for you what it is to care; but the choice is still the individual's.

>Apart from actual miracles, God's ways are subtle, and I'd say that he has a habit of working through people. I'd even claim not to be able to spot it if he were to work through me (for all I know, he already has - where did all those "Aha!"-experiences come from?).

I agree, that God can work through anyone, and that that person may not neccessarily know God is using them to His greater purpose.

>Some might say that everything any human has ever done which was considered "good" was, more or less directly, the work of God.

If so, then being able to draw the line where "God influence" stops and "human influence" starts is moot, since it all comes from God.

>
> With this question, I do not intend to start some humungous thread on bible-interpretation, so please limit the quotations if you are so inclined.

Quite honestly I wish I had some more time than I am able to give right now to explore this further; I feel like I'm giving it short shrift here. And I'd love to hear some Bible-interpretation/quotations!

> [snip long discussion about whether God rules mankind as marionettes or whether we have any influence on history at all]

...er, is that what we were saying? I don't think so ;-) Kaz!: Mankind is not perfect but can better the world through our best efforts. Me: God gives us free choice to chose Him/His way or not, chosing Him is the best way to better the world.
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> > >
> > > -Ka"I always enjoy conversations that make me *think* and give me a chance to see other points of view"z!
> >
> > koala"me too"mom
>
>
> jul"I prefer them to occur on one of my good days"ian

LOL! ...me too, and this is not one of my better ones...

koala"houseguests arrived unexpectedly"mom