> I would agree that there is potential for betterment in everyone; I would also agree that it is possible for anyone to change (but not always probable). I am fascinated with your statement that "it is also possible to make anyone want to care". Anyone? There are people who are willing to risk and endure bodily harm, incarceration, ignominy rather than make themselves (or let someone make them) care.

Yes, I did say anyone, and I do believe that....though I suppose that I may indeed be a tad optomisic in this case. Two things I'd like to note though: First, I am quite certain that using *force* as a means to make someone care, as you suggest I may have meant by that statement, will NOT work on very many people at all. Why? Because using force as a means to change someones beliefs/values/ideas demonstates a lack of care. I much prefer to lead by example; I've found that meeting hostility/anger/rudeness in a calm and polite manner can often make the other do likewise. Of course, this particular approach won't work with all people, but I'd think that the success rate is much better then it would be if force was used. Second, I didn't say that it was possible for *me* to make anyone want to care; I don't believe that I can do so. I just mean that the possibility for anyone to change and to care exists. This change can come about through any way: through human effort or through God it doesn't matter. Just as no one can be 100% good, I don't believe anyone can be 100% evil either....even if a person is, say, only 0.1% good, that small part still exists and under the right conditions (which can be very difficult to find sometimes) it can grow.

> Agreed, being flawed is not an excuse for doing nothing. But I believe our flaws significantly hamper us from *ultimately* changing the world for better.

I disagree. We can not completely remove evil...but we can lessen it. We can not make everyone care...but we can make more people do so. Because of our flaws, we can not make the world a perfect place... but I don't think that means that we can't ultimately make it a better place then it is.

> > I find that I can relate better to this state of "Not perfect, can't be perfect, but trying anyway" better then I could relate to a state of absolute perfection, which I have not experienced myself....which is why I place my own hope where I do.

> But isn't this settling for second best on the basis of comfort level? [snip] To me it just boils down to choices. I read somewhere that most daily choices are not made between a good thing and a bad thing; they are made between a good thing and a *better* thing. Human compassion and caring are good, but God, by definition, would be better, and where I chose to place hope.

Choosing God as the place for me to put my faith and hope into would be better then choosing human compassion and caring as a place for it....provided that I share the same view of God and believe in His strenghs as much as it seems you do.

However, I do not share this view.

I think that I previously discussed the reasons why I choose to place my faith and hope within others -- I can relate easier to something that I know a good deal about myself. With God...well...my view right now is quite sketchy, at best. I am trying to learn more, but I still have a while to go. For me, it would seem that putting my faith in God would be putting my faith in an unknown...it might work out better, but then again it might not. And before I put my faith in anything, I want to know a fair bit about it first. So, with God rather far and with others like myself quite a bit closer, I am more comfortable with putting my hope and faith in them rather then in God (for the time being, at least), despite the flaws I know we all have.

Another thing to note is that, by putting my hope and faith in others I musy also put faith into wherever *their* faith lies....which means that I do put some faith into God, alas indirectly.

>As an aside, I would add that a faith and hope in God can turn into a motivating factor in itself for people to change the world for better.

Very true....but then, I can also argue that having faith and hope in others can become a powerful motivating factor to change the world for the better too. In fact, anywhere that you put faith can turn into a motivating factor...whether that factor motivates a person to do good or evil though depends, of course, on where the faith is put.

-Ka"I hope most of that made sense...if not I'm blaming it on the fact that it's late and I'm sleepy!"z!