> OK, I have a bunch of comments to throw in on this thread.
>
> > > Well what if I said that I didn't see anything wrong with eating you???? That wouldn't make it right!! Animals are alive too and deserve our respect!!!
>
> This issue raises my hackles for SO many reasons. OK, first of all, have any of you noticed that the meats that humans eat tend to be from herbivores? The concepts of energy conservation and food chains apply here as others have mentioned. Moreso, though, some simple analysis of the human body shows that we have been bred, like wolves, or tigers, to eat meat. Our frontal teeth, the incisors and the canines, are designed for tearing and eating meat. The absurdity in your statement here is HUGE. Humans are NOT the same as the meat we eat. If we ate carnivores, then that would be a bit different; however, we don't (with the exception of cultural delicacies like shark meat). The only justifiable humans to eat, ironically, would be the vegetarians... But I say that in a tongue in cheek fashion. :-)

Huh? You say that because we have teeth that can eat meat we should? We also have guns that shoot bullets should we kill people just becuase we can? No and so we shouldn't eat meat just because we can either.

>
> > > > 2) Its not like animals have anything better to do then sit on my plate.
> > >
> > > What about bringing up their young or living their own lives, in peace? Do you have nothing better to do than sit on a plate!? Animals are living things just like you and me!!
>
> A quick question: Do you believe that we should prevent wolves from hunting deer, or mice, (or whatever else wolves eat) because their prey is alive? If so, then how are the wolves supposed to live? I won't argue this particular point futher until I hear your thoughts on that.

No but they dont know any better. Humans are more evolved than anmials and we can know the difference between murder and not and we should survive on plants. Also wolves don't heard their prey and keep them in cages and stuff like that. Humans do. If you want to go out and catch deer with your own bare hands then okay that's natural but you probably just buy it in the store that is not.

>
> > > Even if that was true (which it is not!!) it wouldn't be very much help. How would you like it if I kidnapped you when you were a baby, kept you in a box, and then made one quick cut until you were dead?? Probably wouldn't be much consoleation!
> >
> > I'll agree with you on this one. With my limited knowledge of modern food industry (an accurate term, I beleive), I'd say that the meat we buy from stores often comes from inhumanely treated animals, especially the 'keeping in a box' thing. I'm not sure about the "quick cut" either, but I'd have to say that I don't really know for sure.
>
> I'm not sure where this whole "keeping in the box" thing comes from. Having lived in Alberta for my entire life (except the first two months) I have lived around the huge pastures in which our cattle are raised. Even chickens tend to have quite a bit of space to roam during the day. They sleep in a "box," so to speak, but this is for protection from the elements and predators, and the chickens go there voluntarily at the end of the day because they are smart enough to recognize the benefits, I assume. I can't argue the issue of how the animals are killed, because my knowledge does not extend into that area, but I agree that quick deaths as Nyperold mentions in the kosher method of killing are the only appropriate way to do this. I do know that in Alberta, we have numerous animal rights groups who watch out for cases of animal abuse in our farming, and occasionally something comes up in the news about a company that was NOT dealing with its animals in a humane fashion--this would lead me to believe that inhumane treatment is NOT the norm here.

What you are talking about is "free range" chickens and those are at least better than all but it is not the only way. I do not know about Canada but in the U.S.A. I know this is true. You ask for proof well I read about this in a magazine I think it was Time or something. My friend (who convinced me to become a vegan) has it and if you really want it I can get it for you.

>
> > > I don't mean to be rude on my first post but you happened to pick an issue very close to my heart (I'm a vegan). There are plenty of other protien sources. You don't need meat to be healthy and happy. Meat is murder, and it's no better than eating humans!! You wouldn't eat a human, but a cow is fine? The thing is a cow is probably better than a human because how many wars have cows started? Think on that for a bit...
>
> *sigh* Do you honestly think that cows could survive with the genetic traits they have in the environment they now live in without the protection of humans? Chickens too, for that matter. If we were to tear down the fences, it would only be a matter of time before the local wolves and coyotes hunted down and killed all the formerly protected animals. You could say that this is the fault of humans, too, but if it weren't for us, the vast majority of these cows would never have been born. The cows may not start any wars, but what relevance does that even HAVE to this discussion? Wars are mainly bad for humans, so saying that wars are bad seems to imply that you think that the concerns of humans are very important. If this is true, then you are setting humans apart as different from everything else--so make up your mind.
>
> > That said, there is one very good reason for not buying meat (and becoming politicaly active), and that is the way (a large part of) the meat industry treats the animals.
>
> I would be curious to know which parts of the meat industry these are. The conditions you have described above sound like puppy farms and mink farms, but and decent cattle farmer knows that animals who live in stressed and poor conditions produce low quality meat. Maybe there are other parts of the world where people still cramp their cattle and accept the low quality meat; I'm not well enough travelled to know. In any case, I would like to get into specifics if this thread is to continue. Vague generalities like this aren't going to convince anyone, and are just taking up space in this forum.

Do you remember that thing with Oprah a while ago where she spoke out against the beef industry because of the expert on her show showed how inhumane and filthy it was... cows being kept in cages (what do you think veal is but babies in cages??) and dirty and killed slowly. Sure they try one quick cut but it doesn't always work and the industry has a lot of money to keep the environmental protectionists out of the way. Remember they sued Oprah even though she won in the end but still. That's a lot of money to have!! Don't think they don't try and pay off politicians!!!

>
> > > Lib "New to Rinkworks please don't think I'm too mean! Hehe. Did I do this right?" by
> >
> > jul"I'm not sure I should be the one to welcome you since I haven't been here for a while"ian
>
> Well, since no one else seems to have said it, welcome to Rinkworks, Libby. Despite my arguments against your stance, I do appreciate the courage you show in jumping in and standing up for something you believe in. I hope that future discussions can be a little less emotionally charged (and a little more careful with the punctuation and spelling). :-)
>
> Don "The Not-So Welcoming Welcome Wagon" Monkey

Okay, sorry I know that I don't always pay too much attention to spelling and stuff but you know my main message is what I'm saying if you can understand it okay then I'm happy. I don't need to win a pulitzer prize just get my point across!! ;-)

Thank you for welcoming me Don Monkey!! And Nyperold too!!

Lib "Rinkworks is coool!!!" by