> > > I don't think I mentioned brown people.
> >
> > You may as well have. Maybe it's just a coincidence that Arabs (the largest group of people in "that part of the world") are not white.
>
> I think you're probably being a bit hard on Howard, Stephen. By your logic, one cannot make a political judgment about any continent not populated by whites? I totally don't buy that.

No, but stereotypes based solely on the heritage of people are wrong. I don't know how else to put it. People in those part of the world, unlike the Japanese, don't learn from their mistakes? That's not racist? It's assigning attributes to an entire race based on their heritage. What else should we call it?

> I sympathize with Howard's opinion, though I don't know that I subscribe to it, that democracy isn't necessarily compatible with the customs and cultures found in many nations in the Middle East.

As I said, there is a huge difference between making a more nuanced argument that actually takes into account the customs and culture of a people and just stereotyping them all as being descended from desert tribes who like violence.

> At the very least, it's a humongous change of mindset that won't be easy. I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that Middle Eastern culture is different from ours and therefore potentially not as compatible with the same forms of government. In fact, I think we *must* consider possibility very seriously.

I agree that we should consider the possibility (if you investigate it, you will find that it's still an unanswered question among scholars, who have devoted quite a bit of ink to this subject). But dismissing an entire group of people as being incapable of learning from their mistakes based on their heritage is not a serious investigation. It's just stereotyping.

> I later read Darien's post, in which he brings up Aristotle's conclusion that democracy is a natural step in a political cycle. This establishes a non-racial basis for the point: democracy isn't inherently above any nation, but for particular nations in a particular time, it might be, depending on where they are in that cycle.

This wasn't the argument that was made. I would have not responded the way I did to this argument.

> Doesn't mean we have to use the argument to justify a racist position.

The argument *is* a racist position. "People X are Y because of their race" is racism. It may not necessarily translate into negative actions toward that race, but it is still racism.

> The problem only comes when one takes a step neither one of us took, namely to say "...therefore we should rule them," or some other self-serving or dismissive conclusion.

Howard's clear implication is that we shouldn't bother spending energy to help establish democracies in the Middle East (or at least Iraq) because people in that part of the world can't handle it. That sounds fairly self-serving to me.

> But if we don't understand the difference in cultures and just figure we can plug in what works for us and assume it'll work for everybody...that's almost certainly a road to failure.

I agree, and I think it is precisely why we are failing. We made some very large miscalculations in the way we have handled our occupation and we're paying the price. But Howard's post was not a call for understanding of the Arab world -- it was a dismissive "these guys are savages" argument.

> > Ah, the classic "I have friends/relatives who are X" defense. Nothing proves you're not being racist like bringing out that chestnut.
>
> Also disagree here. This is more about sensitivity to cliches than proof one way or the other.

I agree it's not proof. My point exactly is it's not proof.

> > P.S. I'm interested in seeing how your argument about how "that part of the world" is incapable of handling democracy deals with Turkey.
>
> Probably because he was not making a race call in the first place and therefore didn't just blindly include every Arab nation.

When he refers to "the people in that part of the world" what was he talking about then? Plenty of people descended from "desert tribes" in Turkey as well.

Stpehen