> > I don't think I mentioned brown people.
>
> You may as well have. Maybe it's just a coincidence that Arabs (the largest group of people in "that part of the world") are not white.

I think you're probably being a bit hard on Howard, Stephen. By your logic, one cannot make a political judgment about any continent not populated by whites? I totally don't buy that.

I sympathize with Howard's opinion, though I don't know that I subscribe to it, that democracy isn't necessarily compatible with the customs and cultures found in many nations in the Middle East. At the very least, it's a humongous change of mindset that won't be easy. I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that Middle Eastern culture is different from ours and therefore potentially not as compatible with the same forms of government. In fact, I think we *must* consider possibility very seriously. [Edit: I later read Darien's post, in which he brings up Aristotle's conclusion that democracy is a natural step in a political cycle. This establishes a non-racial basis for the point: democracy isn't inherently above any nation, but for particular nations in a particular time, it might be, depending on where they are in that cycle.]

Doesn't mean we have to use the argument to justify a racist position. The problem only comes when one takes a step neither one of us took, namely to say "...therefore we should rule them," or some other self-serving or dismissive conclusion. For my part, I think it's still worth trying. Anything's better than leaving people like Saddam in power. But if we don't understand the difference in cultures and just figure we can plug in what works for us and assume it'll work for everybody...that's almost certainly a road to failure.

> > I have relatives who are as brown as they are.
>
> Ah, the classic "I have friends/relatives who are X" defense. Nothing proves you're not being racist like bringing out that chestnut.

Also disagree here. This is more about sensitivity to cliches than proof one way or the other. But I remember Howard's posts about the Middle Easterners in his family before, and there was certainly no indication of racism and every indication to the contrary.

> P.S. I'm interested in seeing how your argument about how "that part of the world" is incapable of handling democracy deals with Turkey.

Probably because he was not making a race call in the first place and therefore didn't just blindly include every Arab nation.