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Re: The Deepest Water Ever...
Posted By: Sam, on host 24.61.194.240
Date: Tuesday, May 21, 2002, at 14:07:53
In Reply To: Re: The Deepest Water Ever... posted by Balanthalus on Tuesday, May 21, 2002, at 08:00:16:

> Show me how it is possible to say (and truly mean) the phrase "I accept Jesus as my savior," and not do good works on earth and I'll convert on the spot.

I can't think of any Protestant denomination that believes a truly saved person *wouldn't* do good works on earth. (Let's ignore the case where someone commits his life to Christ at the moment of death.) That isn't the point of difference.

The points of difference are (1) what actually saves one and what is a simple consequence of it; and (2) what one trusts in to do so.

On the first point, the many verses you quoted from Romans and other writings of Paul are exactly it: you have to trust SOLELY in Christ's sacrifice to save you. If you're trusting in that PLUS doing good works, or that PLUS getting baptized, or that PLUS regular church attendance, or that PLUS anything else, then you're trusting in the wrong thing. If it takes something else to save you, then it means Christ's sacrifice was not powerful enough to suffice, but the Bible is clear that accepting Christ's sacrifice IS sufficient.

It sounds like you personally agree with this. Some Catholics do, but I know many who do not. I know Catholic priests that do not preach it. I know that many in the Catholic church believe that you can believe in Christ's sacrifice, follow through on several of the church's various ceremonies -- confirmation, baptism, communion, and so forth -- yet fail in certain other areas and be condemned. Then again, there are some Protestant denominations that are confused on this point as well. But I don't endorse all Protestants, nor even all Baptists, and seek only to discern what God has to say on the matter.

The second point follows naturally from the first. Ephesians 2:8 says salvation is a *gift*, which cannot be earned: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." If, then, you are trusting in faith PLUS works to save you, then your salvation is at least partially of your own making. But this is not consistent with the Bible. Titus 3:5 says we are saved by mercy and not by works of righteousness. If we were saved even partially by works of righteousness, Titus 3:5 and other verses would be incorrect.

Again, perhaps *you*, maybe also your Catholic friends, maybe even your entire Catholic church, believes exactly this and is conscientious about living it. But this has not been my experience with the Catholic church in general.

--

Shifting topics a little, note something about all the verses you cited. The verses that support salvation by faith alone all seem to be given in the writings of Paul: Romans, Ephesians, Titus, and so forth. Yet the other set of verses all appear in the gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, all of which concern the times prior to Christ's crucifixion, when the rules of salvation were necessarily different. Throughout history, God deals with mankind in different ways, perhaps so that, at the end of all things, God can show how mankind, as a race, was given every possible chance: in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve could not blame their rejection of God on their sinful natures, because they were born with out them. Moses was given the Law and thus began a time when men could be right with God by following a hard-fast set of rules. In the age we are in now, all we have to do is believe. In the age to come, "the devil made me do it" won't be an excuse, nor the corruption of human governments: Satan will be bound in the depths of hell, while Christ reigns physically on Earth. The end of each period (I skipped a couple in early Genesis) is marked by a rebellion against God, a failure on the part of the whole human race, to submit to God's rules for that time, and there is a judgment and renewed blessing, where God tries something else to given men a chance.

My point in all this? It is important to understand that while ALL of the Bible is profitable for learning (and other things: see II Timothy 3:16), it is important to understand that not all of the Bible is specifically addressed to us. Whenever there is a doctrinal difference, you have to defer to the part of the Bible intended for the times in which we live.

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