> > The Other "I think this can help simplify it: I'm incredibly ignorant when it comes to my religion. *I* think that's particularly bad when you're a Catholic. But then, I'm the one sitting here saying I know nothing about this stuff." Matthew
>
> I didn't realize you were Catholic when I responded to your response to Ria's post. I'm probably at least as ignorant as you on all things Catholic, but I am pretty certain that the Catholic take on baptism is significantly different from the fundamental Baptist doctrine.
>
> The main problem I see with the Roman Catholic church is that they put waaay too much emphasis on ceremony and working one's way to heaven. The Church tells you that you have to do all the sacraments if you want to go to heaven, right? But if you don't get them all in, or maybe even if you don't do any of them, that's okay, you won't go to Hell unless you're really bad; you'll just have to sit in Purgatory until your relatives make penance for you.
>
> Problem is, that's just not Biblical, as Martin Luther discovered. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." -Ephesians 2:8-9. Scripture clearly teaches that a man cannot work his way to heaven.
>
> I don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. Being baptised does not save you. Faith in Christ does that. To me, baptism is something a person does *after* salvation, to publicly identify and testify of what God has done for them.
>
> Gri"owner of a concordance"shny

Of *course* a man can't work his way to heaven. Catholics are told by non-Catholics that they believe a lot of things they don't (or rather, that the church teaches a lot of things that it doesn't) such as the belief that Catholics worship Mary or the saints.

What follows is an excerpt from an email I sent Sam a while back responding to the usual list of biblical charges levied against Catholics. Basically, its point is that while good works do not merit salvation, they can still be necessary for it.

"
. . .

'Need to be born again to be saved: John 3:3,7.'

I repeat Nicodemus' words and ask exactly what it means to be born again? More on this below.

. . .

*SNIP*

. . .

'Saved by faith only, not works: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9-10, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:16.'

Alright, this is the most complicated one. I agree that we are saved by grace alone; salvation is a gift freely given by God and cannot be earned, only accepted. However, how do we accept this gift? How do we become "born again?" Paul's letter to the Ephesians says that we must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus states that we must become like little children; In Mark, that we must give up our possessions. Jesus also said that love of God and neighbor is necessary for salvation. And there are a multitude of passages (Matthew 5:3-12 and 6:4, 6, 18 for example) that seem to say that it is through our actions that we are saved. In Matthew 26:31-46, the Father doesn't say "You were born again," or "You were saved," or "You had faith." He says that those who attain salvation have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and sheltered the homeless. That seems like a list of good works to me. Which of these passages is correct?

Yes, it is through faith alone that we are saved. But faith isn't just an emotion, a thought, or a declaration that "Jesus is my personal savior; today I am saved." It is a way of life, something that we must live and breathe, and I don't see how faith can possibly be divorced from works.

A homily I heard this past year, based on Matthew 21:28-32, probably explains better than I can. The crux of the parable is that it didn't matter what either son said to his father, only who went to work in the vineyard. The priest giving the homily joked that when his Protestant friends made a statement like "I am saved," he would reply "Lucky you," because the acceptance of salvation isn't a one-time deal. We are called to work in the vineyard every day of our lives, not because for every thousand grapes we harvest we get one step closer to earning a ticket into heaven, but because by working in the vineyard we live the faith that accepts the grace of God that leads to salvation. Show me how it is possible to say (and truly mean) the phrase "I accept Jesus as my savior," and not do good works on earth and I'll convert on the spot.

. . .

"

Bal"Decided not to post the whole thing"anthalus