>You made your point; I made mine; this stopped
>being productive some time ago.

Didn't want to address ths in my previous post because it would have taken me way too far off topic.

What is it about these discussions that upsets you so much? You wanted to delete this thread way back when, before it even really got started. You've expressed your displeasure with it and with my posts serveral times since then.

I think you and I go back far enough to know that whatever we "argue" about here isn't going to impact our friendship overmuch. You may get pissed at me for a bit and I may get pissed at you, but in the end we'll smooth it over. So I'm pretty sure it can't be anything to do with that that's bothering you. We both know our beliefs aren't likely to change much if at all during a discussion like this--I'd be shocked if I got you to deconvert because of anything *I* said, and I know your faith isn't so weak that I could say anything to even seriously shake it.

Is it because you feel like I'm bringing up the same arguments over and over? If I am, it's because I've never heard what I would consider a valid response to them. And for me, half the fun of a debate isn't convincing the other person of my position, it's being challenged to come up with new ways to *defend* my position. Everytime you post something that seeks to refute something I said, I have to either accept your refutation or find a flaw in it. The thinking about that is what makes a debate so interesting in the first place. It doesn't matter to me what we're debating--politics, religion, the benefits of space travel--it's all the same.

Do you just not enjoy debates? In that case, just opt out. Half the fun of doing this on the forum instead of through email is because although technically I'm "challenging" you when I post a response to something you wrote, I'm *really* challenging anyone and everyone who thinks like you who reads this board. I don't expect *you* to always carry the brunt of the "defence"--in fact, I always hope for and am excited when someone else posts to the thread with an opinion or a new and novel argument I've not heard before.

Anyway, it's not the destination I like so much as the journey. I'm sorry if you don't find the same enjoyment I do in it.

-- Dave