> > > > To put it bluntly: if Christ did not arise from death, then my faith is worthless.
> > >
> > > No, your faith wouldn't be pointless. Even is Christ was just a carpenters son, and a wise Rabbi, his leasons still hold true 2000 years later.
> >
> > Wolf is right. If Christ wasn't the Son of God and rose from the dead, her faith is useless, and so is mine. [...]
> If Christ were just a man, maybe it's still worth heeding his advice on life, but it certainly doesn't make him worth *worshipping*, committing one's *life* to, and putting the whole trust of one's eternal security into.
>
>
> Yes; exactly. Thank you for showing what's at stake so clearly, Sam. I wasn't sure just how far to go into it. I know that a lot of people think of themselves as Christians in name only; I wonder how many of these nominal Christians would decide to depart completely from Christianity, and have nothing further to do with it, when they realize the degree of commitment required. It is, indeed, almost exactly like getting married. Without a deeper appreciation of Christ and his mission for the world, it is far too easy for 'Christians' to say and do all sorts of atrocities in Jesus' name.
>
> If Christ were "just a man," why should we give any more lasting attention to him than to other "wise teachers" like (say) Leo Buscaglia, Carl Rogers, Gandhi, or Mother Theresa? Jesus would've been just another flash-in-the-pan local news item in ancient Palestine, another wannabe Messiah easily quashed by the civil authorities, and that would have been THAT. But he rose up to defeat death... and he had witnesses to his resurrection. He had witnesses who were willing to endure torture, and threats of death, and being torn apart by lions, rather than disavow that Yeshua was the Saviour. The Roman and Jewish authorities couldn't figure them out. It didn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense, that anyone could continue worshipping a romantic fool -- one who had gotten himself condemned and executed! -- unless He really *did* do something which transcended the cross after his death.
>
> And Christ forever changed the shape of human civilization; there can be no doubting that. Many people had lived before him who said, "Respect your neighbour," and "Do the least amount of harm." Gautama Buddha said these things. His own Jewish contemporaries said these things. But until Christ put His authority behind the concepts, no one thought these ethical sayings were anything other the peculiar foibles of a regional code of conduct, for a bunch of isolated tribal communities (like the Jews). The rest of the 1st century world in which he walked and taught was not so forgiving. The Romans considered it a sign of personal weakness if one were stupid enough to show mercy to the poor; for the poor deserved to be worthless beggars. Likewise, the ancient arabic nomads had a rather revealing proverb among themselves: "If you see a blind man, spit on him; why should you be kinder to him than the gods?" So, you know, Christ shook up the very bedrock of cultural ideals -- away from a blasé and narrow self-centered standard, directly towards the concept of a greater community: one where mercy and compassion for the weak, and the friendless, was expected and desired. All of us were and are in the same boat -- weak and stupid and blind and miserable, and Christ's work really was needed to show how badly humanity is prone to treat its members.
>
> So I'm saying, he really did come to save us from ourselves, because we can't do it by ourselves, alone... without the presence and grace of God.
>
> Wolf "falls off soapbox, goes to bed" spirit

Well, I'd say Buddha had as large an impact on the eastern world as Jesus had on the western world, and there are million and millions of Buddhists who would give similar arguments to yours that Buddha was 'more than just a man.' I still don't think it matters. What impresses me is, while much of the esoteric metaphisical stuff is different between Buddhism and Christianity, they DO both call for many of the same actions and values.

And I have a question regarding entrance into heaven. Do you have to be a Christian? If you arn't a Christian then you are breaking the first of the Ten commandments. But if that alone is enough to exile you from Heaven, and send you to hell, then that means Gandhi (one of the most influntial people of the 20th century, who freed his country through non-violence) went to Hell.

I'm just useing Gandhi as an example, other heroic, kind, noble, and compasionate non-Christians would have gone to Hell as well.

Myself, I don't belive God sent Gandhi to Hell. God is often called a Loving God and I don't think a loving God would send as good a man as Gandhi to Hell. Maybe there is a secondary heaven for worthy non-Christians, better than Puragotry, much better than Hell, but not quite as good as heaven. The fruit isn't as fresh or something.

When I think about it, that might be the more fun place to visit. If Heaven is really Jew (Jesus freed all the Good Jews in Hell between Good Friaday and Easter Sunday) and Catholic only the discusions would get repetative. In seconday Heaven you would have Buhhdists, Hindus, Wiccans, Incas, Aztecs. Gandhi, Plato, Socartes, Cheif Joseph... Man I'd like to get into a conversion with those guys.

Speed'uh, yeah'ball