> > > You cannot live your life just for him.
> >
> > Of course you can. I try my best to do just that.
>
> Another aspect of this piece of the discussion, at least with regard to the Christian lifestyle that Ria and I both live, is that it's a two-way street. I try to live for God; part of my spiritual belief is that in doing so, God will live for me, so to speak. Biblically, the relationship is compared to marriage -- a distinctly asymmetrical marriage, but very much bi-directional.
>
> Aside from my relationship with God, I try my best to live for Leen. Sometimes this involves doing things I would do anyway, and sometimes this involves making sacrifices. Is it "shallow" for me to live for her? Or is it ok because she reciprocates? Frankly, if I lived for her, and she lived only for herself, I'd call her the shallow one and expect to be *respected* for my selflessness if not necessarily my wisdom. (Side note: Leen does not do this.)
>
> Likewise, the only way I can see a selfless life in service to God as being "shallow" would be if the decision to live this way were based upon shallow reasons. I serve God partly because I believe it is universally "right" to do so in that I was created for that purpose, but also because I believe he has already given me more love and grace than anyone else ever will or could, both in word and in action, most notably in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for me. Now, maybe some would say I am mistaken about these facts, but if they are as true as I believe them to be, how can my response -- an attempt to use my life to reciprocate that love as best I can -- possibly be considered "shallow"?

I didn't mean for this thread to turn into religious persecution. I will say again, I respect your religion. I envy your dedication to an ideal and the purpose you feel you have in your life because of your beliefs. But, there are some people who I believe use religion too much as a crutch.
I said, I thought that if the only goal you had in your life was to obey God then that was kind of shallow. When I said that, I was thinking of one particular instance, and I'll share that, so maybe you can understand where I'm coming from.

When our Biology teacher was doing ecological systems, we were going over altruistic behavior among animals. My biology teacher did not believe in altruism. As an example to us of how altruism was false, he said "Now think about all those people who give to charity. Do they do it because it helps others? No. They do it because they know God wants them to, and so they can get into heaven.". So then I asked him about athiests who give to charity, and he was kind of taken aback by that...

So what I'm saying is this: If the only reason you try to do well in your life is because you think there is a God I think that is wrong. I think you should want to do well in your life anyway. And if the only reason, in your life, that you ever wanted a certain job, or wore certain clothing, was because someone else told you to do so, yeah, I consider that shallow. And that's all that I mean by that.

I don't know if have much more to add to this thread(everyone else is doing so well. La! I don't even know the meaning of half these philosophy concepts!), but I really hope that I have cleared this up. I don't want to attack religions, and I had sort of meant to avoid it fromt the start. I'm not sure what I'll attempt in the future, but I'm beginning to think it is not possible to talk about life without someone's religion being insulted(at least as far as I'm concerned. I think agnostics give off a natural religion offending aura). So, again, sorry if I made you feel you had to defend your beliefs. It was my intention to explore, and not defeat them...

Melanie