> > > The problem with that analogy is, within the context of my original post, it doesn't address the question: why is there any reason for evil to exist at all?
> >
> > The problem of evil is a major one for anyone assuming that God is in total control, just guiding the universe along to His chosen ending. As you said in your original post, this eliminates free will. However the God of the Bible did *not* eliminate free will - He wanted creatures who would love Him willingly.
> >
> > Humans *do* have free will.
>
> What, then, do you mean by free will? I have been thinking about my post and I realized I wasn't as clear as I could have been on a few points. This is one of them.
>
> Maybe we should define terms. I would say that "intelligence" means (roughly) the ability to evaluate decisions based a weighing of the evidence. It seems like all creatures of a certain complexity have some degree of intelligence -- even animals are capable of learning things and applying learned information. They are also capable of making decisions. If two people call a dog at the same time it must decide which one to run to. Not a complicated decision that the dog is likely to ponder, but a decision nonetheless.
>
> Humans certainly have this ability as well. Perhaps what confuses matters is that humans are vastly superior at this than any other animal. We can ponder things at great length and really understand that our actions have consequences. "Free will," however, seems to imply something *more* than just making decisions based upon evidence.
>
> My point is that if free will is merely the ability to make decisions, and our only means for making decisions comes from our physical experiences and our biological makeup, then choice is largely an illusion, as both of these things are determined by purely physical forces. We are simply following physical laws.
>
> Traditional concepts of free will seem to think otherwise. I ask, then, what does "free will" mean to you, and how does it differ from what I've described?
>
> Stephen

A thought. What's to say free will isn't one of this "quantum mechanics" type things, where the result is random, but God knows what the result will be, *at the present time*, and that certain other physical interactions can influence that decision, and that He knows what influences are necessary to produce a certain randomness, but in the end, it's still random. Perhaps God did introduce a truly random...thing, in the form of free will. He can know, right now, what the result of that randomness will be given present conditions, which are also subject to that same randomness in changes. So up to the instance of the occurence of the "random" decision making that is free will, God can and does know its result...but that that result is subject to change until its actual occurence. God can know, right now, what a human's decision in regards to a choice will be, but because he created it as a random thing, it is subject to changing, due to other said random elements introduced to his universe (namely, the exercise of other beings' free wills). And because these wills are "random", they cannot be directly influenced by God.

I don't know. All of that just ran off the top of my head, again. There's probably holes and misunderstandings all over the place. Do point them out. I'm finding this all very interesting to think about.

The Other "I'm doing this instead of watching football. That ought to say something to many of you who know me well" Matthew