> If that's the way you define patriotism, ok, but if you're thinking that's what Americans hold for patriotism, there's a misunderstanding here, and small wonder you're not keen on that patriotism.

Hmm, it isn't quite how I really meant to define it, but it's somewhat how the American view of the world seems to come across from over here, and I suspect a less pretty version of our country appears elsewhere in many ways over asylum seekers etc (and that bad impression is perfectly justified from all I know...). And when I say "American view" I don't really mean to imply that all Americans hold that view, it's more a suggestion that that's the kind of thing that the media portrays more strongly than not and that thus many people would hold such views.

> I love my country. "Patriotic" is a word I describe myself with with pride. I don't just love it in the sense that it's a great place to live -- I love all of what makes the United States the United States. I love the ideals it was founded upon. I love its land and its people. I love its history, its culture, and the products of its labor.

Not something I can understand. Possibly it's just my excessively cynical view that doesn't let me feel much of the same pride in my own country. To feel sick at the supposed ideals, the people, the way it was founded, the cultural changes and pitiful following of the US in things good and bad regardless of whether it's something suitable for Australia or not, but just because big brother is doing it.
At the same time as that, I feel that probably a large part of why you feel that way may be to do with the fact that you were brought up to feel that way and the US government takes every opportunity to tell people how good the US is and a lifetime of that is bound to sink in a little?
It's also perfectly true to say that at my age and life experience my opinion is probably not quite as well informed also, and I recognise that :)

> But none of this implies anything you take patriotism to be. I *don't* have a "keep out, rest of the world" attitude at ALL. I spent eight years in Europe and was absolutely enchanted with its histories and cultures. For all the rivalry between the U.S. and the U.K. that I myself teasingly engage in, I adore our friends across the pond -- I can't wait to visit it again and show my wife around. The Alps of Germany, Switzerland, and Austria inspire in me a kind of awe that nothing else can duplicate. My oldest online friend is a Canadian. In my trip report to New Zealand from last year, I called it paradise.

No argument about that. Just out of curosity do you over there get the same arguments about "We must do something about the shrinking population - have more babies!", while at the same time "We must keep immigrants out unless they're the Right Sort for us (white, good professions, etc), and be careful of those asylum seekers!"?

> As for politicians and bureaucrats, that's *definitely* not a quality of typical American patriotism. Americans are (arguably) more cynical about their own politicians than most other nation's peoples are about theirs. Some believe in specific politicians (I remain a spirited defendant of President Bush [usually], but I'm at odds with other Americans on that more often than those of other nationalities), but very few think much of the current batch of politicians and bureaucrats as a whole. (I don't.) But so what? I don't know how you define what your country is, but I certainly don't define it exclusively in terms of its government. A nation's government is a part of the nation but not all of it. Not even most of it.

I can't think that there'd be much good to say about monsieur Bush, and it saddens me when I hear people believing in such a stupid dangerous man (or one who puts on a good performance of one if he isn't...). A government isn't a nation, but it is the _face_ of a nation.

> ...From the outside, it may look like Americans hold such a belief, but that's because we don't take criticism well from others (partly because we take so damn MUCH of it, even just from our *allies*, and also partly because we sometimes feel we aren't appreciated for those things we do right). But I/we certainly don't think we are perfect.

That explanation works better for me. But disregarding the opinion of the rest of the world because you have more missiles than the rest of them combined appears to be Bush's solution...


And agreed to the rest as a good explanation of how you feel - I appreciate the explanation. The acknowledgement of imperfections etc is not something that comes across, and I guess it isn't something you would expect to on further thought.