> This is where I have a huge problem. Yes, it's true that if a wife is completely walked on and dominated, she probably won't get a divorce, but that's because she's dependent on her husband. That doesn't mean that the marriage is good, though.

I'm not talking about walking all over and dominating my wife, though. That is not what the Bible teaches at all. That's wrong. If I do that, I'm only using the parts of Scripture that I like, and throwing out the rest, and that won't wash with God.

> Similarly, "nagging wives, angry husbands, miserable children" are NOT a result of slightly altered roles in a marriage, and I don't care what version or translation of the Bible you do or do not use. I know people who switch things around and have perfectly fine, healthy marriages. I also know people who have followed the whole "men lead the family, wives help him" thing, and their marriages ended in horrific divorces. Of course, if that works for you, that's fine. But I don't think people who do things differently are going against the Bible, or increasing their chances of divorce.

Neither do I. I'm not talking about stereotypical "duties" for husbands and wives. Roles and responsibilities in the home should be delegated according to where each person's strengths lie. If my wife was better at accounting than me and enjoyed it, I wouldn't feel like I wasn't a Biblical husband by letting her manage our money. If I enjoyed cooking and was really good at it (I'm not), then I'd have no problem making dinner while my wife did other things.

Still, it's obvious that men and women are different; physically, mentally, and emotionally. We reason differently and tend to handle things in different ways. These aren't stereotypical roles that have been forced onto us by society; it's just the way things are. There are some things that women are better at than men, and vice versa. Why do most men have an innate desire to be competetive, to be first, to lead? Why do most women have the "mothering instinct?" Because we're made that way.

> The problem is that people hear one translation, or hear one way of thinking their whole lives, and they never look at the bigger picture -- at alternative views. Don't take this the wrong way, Grishny, but everything I've ever heard you say about the Bible and Christianity sounds very familiar to me, because that's what I heard for a good part of my life. But you know what? There are a whole lot of people out there who believe in God, believe in Jesus, and see things differently. Does that make them wrong? Who are we to say whether it does?

Well, it depends. If you can hold what they believe up against God's Word and it doens't match, then I think they are wrong. If it's one of those gray areas that God isn't specific about, then no, I have no business judging them.

> It's this "group think" thing that really bugs me. People accept things because that's how they've always been. They don't think outside the stereotypical box, or look at things from other angles and sides. And that's how churches get corrupt.

Believe it or not, I know what you mean and it bugs me too. For the majority of my childhood, I went to the same church and the same Christian school and got used to the same ways of hearing the Bible preached and taught. I believed it, but it was not my own, not personal to me. I beleived it because my parents did and because it's what I had always been taught. Then, my senior year of high school, I had to read a book called "Know Why You Believe." It changed the way I thought. I realized I had to make my faith my own; that I couldn't go through life on what my mom and dad said, or what my pastor said. I can't do something or live a certain way because it's "what the church expects." No, I have to do this because I've studied it for myself and know that it's what God expects of me personally.

>I'm not a regular church-goer anymore, but there is a church I would call my "home church." Rather, there WAS one, until a few days ago, when a big story about the church hit the newspapers... [snipped story] ...but it's enough to make me not go back there, and it's also enough to make me wonder why I ever went there in the first place, or how many of their other teachings are screwed up. This is yet another reason why I'm questioning things I always took for granted. At one time, people just assumed that the earth was flat. They were wrong.

The people who made that decision at your former church were wrong. I can say that with certainty, because that kind of action is NOT in line Scripture. And you're right to make a decision not to go back there, at least not until their general attitude and action changes. But I hope you won't let that sour you on ever attending church again. Assembling together with other believers to worship God is an important part of our faith, and there ARE truly good churches out there.

Also keep in mind that sinful humans tend to fall into sin, and good churches can go bad. Just because your former home church is doing wrong things and possibly teaching wrong things now does not mean they were doing it when you went there. Unfortunately things can go downhill very rapidly when the Devil gets hold of the reins. My wife had to make a difficult decision to leave her former home church for a very similar reason, and no matter how loyal I am to my current church, if I saw an attitude like the one you described carried out in it, I'd not darken its doors again.

> Ell"pretty sure teach was JOKING, anyway"myruh

I know. I knew that when I unknowingly spawned this huge subthread, but I don't regret posting, because it's been very interesting and enlightening to see what everybody thinks.

Grishny