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> One of the biggest issues here (or so I would think, I don't know about anyone else) is that it's children we're dealing with here, and they are certainly not adults. To say that they are not responsible for their actions is completely stupid - they obviously are responsible, and yes, there is a need for punishment when there is a crime, but it is also wrong to assume that their minds work in exactly the same way as those of, say, a couple of 25-year-olds.

So far, I agree. But, torture and murder are so extreme that there most definitely is something fundamentally wrong with these two kids. That is really all I need to know.

As Dave has said, at 10 you function at least partially as a grown-up, and that should be enough to stop you in this kind of case. However, the part of you that does not function as a grown-up should, I propose, be attributable to your parents. I think the question should be: "When are your parents no longer accountable for their children's actions?"

Also, to elaborate on the "definitely" and "fundamentally" of above, I don't believe that whatever it is that is wrong with them can be changed under today's circumstances. They cannot be saved. [Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer ...] That is what I believe, and if there are enough people out there who believe oppositely, the so be it: Let's build a legal system based on it. But be prepared to be proved wrong.


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> Phil-"don't make judgements hastily without knowing about them"-bee

That goes without saying. However, since we are not the judges of the case - and therefore cannot have all relevant information, and therefore don't have any significant influence on the judgement - we can justify basing our views on whatever information we can accept as reasonable. I hope and assume that God does not base judgement on reading this forum.

jul"... or whomever"ian