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> Viewpoint 1: Romantic trivia in everyday life, such as little spontaneous compliments, saying you love someone, giving them flowers, random hugs and kisses etc, devalue a relationship because it means there's nothing left to say on the occasions when you really *mean* it.

Now really, truly, have you *ever* heard *anyone* complain that they hate it when their significant other tells them 'I love you' all the time"? Would you *believe* them if they *did* say that? Or would you think they are really doing a bit of bragging?

I think the only way little gestures and gifts could possibly devalue a relationship is if they are not followed up by consistent behavior in the larger context of the relationship. Don't tell me you love me, then see someone else behind my back. Bringing me flowers won't fix that either.

As far as saving "I love you" only for the bigger occasions, personally, I'd rather hear it (and say it) more often. There are plenty of other/additional, creative ways to show someone you love them when the big occassions do roll around.

>It's better to be honest and only do these things when the feeling genuinely strikes you that way. It's better to be told you look nice maybe twice a year when you know the person absolutely means it with all their heart, than to be told you look nice on a daily basis when obviously that can't always be true.

...which presupposes that at least a portion of such romantic gestures are lies, or attempts to manipulate? I would say, again, look at the larger context of the relationship. Hmmm, time for a corny analogy:

Do you change the oil in your car on a regular basis, or do you wait until the oil light goes on and you end up on the side of the road with a smoking engine? The person on the side of the road can say, well, it was running fine until that light came on...but a person knowledgeable about cars would perhaps have noticed the subtle signs, that no, it was not running as well as it could be.

I think people generally do *less* romantic gestures than they should, because it seems to them the relationship is running fine. Until they end up on the side of the road with one partner upset and feeling unloved.

"You look nice" may really mean "I'm glad to have you around" or "I want you to know my allegiance is with you (and not those 50 other women in their sexy little black dresses at this party)" or "I want to let you know I appreciate you even though you don't really look as nice as you could right at this moment but, ummm, I can't think of anything else to say and that seemed to please you last time".

...which takes us to "how" people want to be shown love. I don't particularly care if you tell me I look nice or not; however take out the trash for me, and I'm yours forever. Different people need to be loved in different ways. And, Mousie's excellent point that "what's romantic" will vary over time within a relationship is important too. If constant "I love you"s make you feel uncomfortable or seem disingenuous, then by all means, express to your loved one what *will* make you feel loved. All of us need "oil" in one way or another; some of us need it more than others.

I guess you can see I agree more with viewpoint 2:

> Viewpoint 2: Romantic trivia like the above improves a relationship because it lets the person know you're thinking of them and you want to make them feel good. It's a way of letting the person know you love them, regardless of whether the actual meaning of the compliment is currently true. It's better to feel visibly loved (if that makes any sense) than to know the person loves you enough not to lie to you. If the person loves you, surely they ought to feel that way a lot of the time anyway.

...which is a measure of how mature a love it is.
Just because I am not feeling the topmost gooshiness of love at its loveliest doesn't mean I don't love you the other times too. It is honest to say "I love you" at the other times because in the larger context of the relationship, I do love you. It's not a lie in that context. There was an Isaac Asmiov "Black Widowers" story that dealt with an issue (on a platonic level) where someone who, if they had expressed the literal truth, would have belied the larger relational truth.
The character decided that the larger relational truth was more important than the smaller literal truth.

And for the same reason, we don't express our grief/displeasure at every single fault, quirk, or stupid thing our loved ones have or have done. Even though biting your toungue at those moments is not "honest" in terms of how we are feeling at the moment, I think it is better than being cruel or distructive in the guise of "complete honesty".



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> Obviously I'm not talking about *big important* things in a relationship, where honesty is ALWAYS the most important,

...agreed...

but just the little extras like the ones mentioned above.
I'm really divided on this question. On the one hand, I feel very strongly about the importance of honesty in small matters as well as big ones. On the other hand, well, maybe I'm still living in a mushy teenage fantasy world. Which viewpoint do you agree with?

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> Brunnen-"will be very interested to see whether the replies divide along gender lines"G


koala"interesting question"mom