> > My point, in turn, was simply that, even if it WERE a hard-and-fast rule of grammar, sometimes caring about the rules crosses the border into foolishness anyhow. If you can't figure out how to say what you're trying to say without violating some rule or other, just say it and move on. There are better things to do with one's time than agonise over that. :-}
>
> An interesting question is this: if a rule of grammar is forcing you into a strange construction, is it really a rule? Grammar rules should reflect usage and anytime a native speaker has trouble formulating a sentence because some alleged rule says he can't do it that way, I question how legitimate that rule is.
>
> I think the real hard-and-fast rules of English (e.g. declarative sentences in the active voice have to include subjects) are so wired into native speakers that they never give us pause. There are a few rules that do trip up native speakers, but they're pretty niggling (e.g. confusing object and subject pronouns). Most rules we're taught are really guidelines to help our clarity more than anything.
>
> Stephen

I'm not picky about grammar, but I still can't stand "off of" and "had went."
My Grammar and Grammpar taught me better English.
Howard