>I actually tried to post this once before, but it got lost and I didn't feel like retyping it. So here goes; let's hope this works.

Well, that's why I copy everything I wrote before posting. ;-P

> > Well, I actually heard Mia say this in chat the other day: you can't have joy without the existence of evil. Joy is the absence of evil, and said evil must be known for said joy to be knowable. The existence of evil, I think, helps to cause an increased appreciation for those joyous/good things, and appreciation that would be lacking were evil to not exist. This appreciation also helps lead to an appreciation for and desire to know God. If all was "good" and not evil, there would be little to no desire for anyone to seek out a good God. If there was no evil for us to ask God's guidance from, then no one would ask it. And seeing as our desire for God/eventual service is what is pleasing to Him, He allowed evil to exist as a means to push us to seek him, a decision that was still left up to us to make. If he wanted us all to seek Him out and serve him regardless, He would've made sure of it. I think the active decision by a human to know God is what is most pleasing to Him.
>
> I think what I said in my original post was, "Without evil, we would have no joy." Basically, if God did not allow evil to exist, good would not exist either.
>
> I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that "joy is the absence of evil," because I don't actually believe that it is. We simply wouldn't know what joy was if evil did not exist.


Well, I think that's mostly what I meant. We can differ, I suppose, on exactly what joy is, but my point was that we wouldn't know it without evil. Which we apparently agree on. Um...right?


> > Of course, this fails to address how that will that I keep referring to can really be "free", as per your question. That'll require a bit more thought on my part.
>
> Again, I addressed this in my original post. I don't believe "free will" is actually "free." Just because we have the ability to make choices, that doesn't mean we won't get punished for making the wrong decision. God gave us agency, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with a price.
>
> Mia

I'm taking free will to mean "ability to make a decision", not "ability to make a decision and not face consequence(s)." I don't believe the presence of a consequence reduces the freedom of the will. It certainly presents good incentive to make the right decision by God, but in the end: we can still choose the incorrect answer. It may not be what God *wants*, but we can still do it. Are you assuming that "free" in "free will" means ability to make a decision without consequence? I'm taking "free" to mean "unimposed upon by outside forces". I could be reading your last paragraph wrong, I dunno.

The Other Matthew