> I didn't speculate on that because (the noble side of it) I try not to make assumptions about people's actual races and ethnic backgrounds based on their stated beliefs (which is different from making assumptions about people's beliefs based on their stated beliefs, of course) and (the ignoble side of it) I'm not familiar with the respective Messianic Jewish movements or how they differ from "mainstream" Gentile Christianity. I do have some Jewish Christian friends, but I'd say they don't fall into the same category because they don't have much of a culturally Jewish background, coming from families that have been assimilated into Gentile Christianity for a few generations. In fact, most of them come from mixed Jewish/Gentile blood (though technically, IIRC, one's still racially "Jewish" as long as the bloodline runs through the mother's side). (The other Jewish Christian I know, one of my teachers, was converted to Christianity along with her parents as a young child.) Hence they aren't, for example, familiar with the Mosaic Law, have no knowledge of Hebrew, and prefer the term "Jewish Christian" to "Messianic Jew". I don't know which one Nyperold prefers; to me it's not much of a distinction except on which aspect one emphasizes.

"Messianic Jew" or "Messianic Israelite"* is preferred... "Jewish Christian" conjures up exactly the image portrayed by the others you mentioned... MJs are already considered(by traditional Jews) "sellouts", or worse, "dead", if they came from traditional Jewish backgrounds(never mind that all they did was accept Messiah), or "wannabes" if they came from traditional Christian backgrounds... So you can imagine what the people you mentioned look like to the Jewish world at large.

Now, if I thought you had to abandon the feasts, the seventh-day Sabbath, etc., in order to be in Messiah, I surely would. No sense taking flak from any Christians on that issue were that the case. But since I know that these things are okay(I knew before I came to Rinkworks, and won't be convinced otherwise), I do them. Intewesting.

> But then the word "Christian" wasn't even invented until the Church had already grown a bit, and Paul many times says that to be a Christian is to be a true Jew, circumcised in the heart and a child of Abraham's promise.
>
> It would make sense that Nyperold, coming from a culturally Jewish background, would be more familiar with the OT and the Law and would choose to emphasize that part of the Bible more than would one of us typical Gentile Christians who still wonder what that whole big first section of the Bible is for. :)

Heh. Remember when I mentioned the Acts 15 thing, where they were teaching about Yeshua(Jesus) because they knew that new believers could learn Torah at the synagogues? Well, your average believer tends not to go places where the Torah is taught about, except for the Bible stories that happen to be in there, so somebody has to talk about it. :-D

> (I've heard my friends describe the OT as the "boring and difficult" part of the Bible, which strikes me as a tragedy, considering that not only is knowledge of the OT essential to understanding of the NT but also that the OT contains many of the most beautiful sections of the Bible.

Oh, and *amazing*. Not to say that events in the NT aren't amazing as well, but picture this:

You're part of the Egyptian army, and your army is in between two walls of seawater. Perhaps if you look closely, you can see fish swimming at eye level. The God Himself pokes His face through these two columns of cloud and fire, throwing everybody into a panic. Then He starts popping your chariot-wheels off like cheap plastic toys. (Ex. 14:22-25) WOW.

> Paul was a great letter-writer and debater, but as a poet he can't hold a candle to David or Isaiah or Solomon. Someone once lent me a book, _The Bible Jesus Read_, and it changed my whole perspective on the OT.)

Hmm. I've seen books with similar titles in catalogs, but at the moment, I don't see any in the online version, and I don't have a paper copy handy.

[Snip Norse mythology]

> Ar"where I could spend eternity jamming with Kurt Cobain, of course"thur

*Messianic Israel and Messianic Judaism, as a whole, differ in one way: the interpretation of who Israel is. MJ believes that only the Jews(and those who become Jews) are Israel, whereas MI believes that the other tribes, which have also been dispersed throughout the nations, are included, as well. In both groups, you can find differences such as: Must adherants obey Talmud as well as Torah, or is it an individual thing?; When is it okay to use the Name of the Father? Always; Anytime, as long as you're respectful; In scriptures and blessings only; Never; etc., etc., etc.. Sort of like doctrinal differences in the mainstream Church, only we don't have handy sub-denominations to say, "Okay, they don't allow use of the name at all, and I want to use it when it's appropriate to do so; but here's one that does" or "They don't believe on the deity of Yeshua(yes, that's right, there are Messianics who don't; I just happen to not be one), and I don't think I could stand to hear about it Shabbat after Shabbat. Here's one that has the deity of Yeshua in its Statement of Faith" and so on. You take your chances upon entering(unless you actually do feel led to go there), and while there are quite a few, it still isn't to where, in most cases, if one congregation doesn't suit you, there's one not far away that you can go to. Ah well.

Oh, here's a link for anyone who's interested in looking...