> > If I might add it -- I hope you don't mind my explanation -- the Christian view is that the only 'good' power comes from God, not of our own efforts.
>
> There's something I can't get.
>
> I cannot think of any effort that doesn't come from the man itself (and I'm not referring to physical efforts like moving furnitures).
> Believing into something is an effort by itself; maybe rejoining with God may alleviate the strain, may make the person stronger.
> At any rate, if you remember my ramblings about Giordano Bruno and the connection between nature, the Man and God I tried to explain some time ago, you'll remember that idea of a so close relationship between Man and God that they 'live' in each other.
>

Yes, I remember.
I also recall that we might have had a language problem somewhere along the line, because I didn't understand your emphasis on explaining how a naturalistic philosopher like Bruno could state that God is *into* (in?) mankind and nature. This isn't exactly a foreign concept to Christians. The Bible states that we are all 'One' body in God (through Christ), and the very heavens and rocks of the earth cry out His name. Jesus himself quotes Psalm 82, saying "You [meaning us!] are GODS; you are all children of the Most High." In other words, our higher essence and true destiny is in being WITH God always, in a relationship so close that, in effect, we will be like God.


> Maybe do you mean that, from your p.o.v., any effort towards God is 'good' and any other is 'not good' ?
>
> AP.

Well, the other thing that Scripture teaches is that even though we're supposed to be co-substantial(?) with the Godhead, the tragedy of the Fall broke that precious link. We're now too weak and small to re-establish God's relationship by ourselves. Stuck with our own efforts, humans keep getting lost and confused, focusing on the trivial and chasing misleading things. So Christians believe that God himself bridges the gap, and reaches down to save us from the depressing misery of being separated from him. He sent Christ down to our level, to be with us, and reform the precious link.

In other words, all 'good' effort originates from God sending it [the gift of his grace] towards us, and not the other way around. Consider this. If, on earth, humans at core were naturally inclined to be 'good' beings inside... and all we had to do was nurture and protect that goodness from birth... then surely one society in all the world would have been able to preserve the "inner goodness" with which our children are born. The evidence suggests otherwise, in terms of the terrible reality of the aggressiveness in our flawed nature without God.

Wolfspirit