> > > The real question comes down to whether you believe there is *one* way of knowing the Sacred (eg, through what is revealed in a particular religion) or more than one.
> >
> > A question indeed that has led to a great deal of tears and blood being shed over the issue. I will not pretend that a Christian is not a 'fanatic', in the sense that s/he insists there is only ONE gateway to knowing the Sacred through Christ. Our insistence on that one path, of course, brands us as intolerant, and offensive, to those seeking consensus through the luxury of "relative religious pluralism", which is promoted to smooth over difficulties in our common Westernized culture. Few people seem to know that outside of North America, many Christians in the developing world today are dying pretty HORRIBLE deaths from persecution -- that is, paying the heavy price for believing and insisting that Christ alone is the way to life. It seems insane, doesn't it. I see your point. It would be so easy to just say there are "multiple paths" to knowing the Sacred, but here we are seeing 'fanatics' willing to give up their lives to say otherwise. Are they (and I) being deceived?
> >
>
> Depends how you look at it. For *you* and other Chrisitans there is only one path, you have chosen Christ and that is fine. What is the problem for 3rd world sufferers is they have chosen a path that other people are aginst, so they become the vicitms of fanatical intolerance.
> Being a member of an illegal minority religion can always be dangerous.
>
> The people giving uo their lives arn't dieing because they say Christianity is the only path, but because they ARN'T saying local faith (be it Muslim, Hindu, what ever) isn't the only path. If they were trully living in a country that supports "multiple paths" then no one would bother them. Tolarance, above all else, tolarance.

Going against the religion of a group of people without tolorance for other religions is dangerous indeed. After all, the first commandment in the christian faith is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." It's amazing how many religions have a line similar to this one. In fact, I think that more and bloodier wars have been caused for this simple reason.

After all, ANYONE who worships that --other-- insignificant god is CLEARY of the devil [or another religious equvilant]. ;-)

Another note about persecution: I think that it says a lot about faith in a country. Faith is generally hard to make, but even harder to break. If a nation state persecutes an individual simply because they express a difference of opinion, what does this say about that nation state? To me, it means that the nation is afraid that they will lose control over their subjects. Of course, this, in turn, must mean that the nation state isn't doing a very good job if the citizens are so easily swayed!

> I myself belive that finding a connection to the Sacred is a personal thing, and we are all on the same Path, it just looks diffrent if you are riding on the Catholic Bus, the Hindu Bus, the Mormon Bus, the Jewish Bus, the Wiccan Bus, and so on.

Uh boy, don't remind me of buses ;-)


> Now some people think that having multiple busses on the road slows everybody down, that the Path is to narrow for more than one bus (and deffinatly to narrow for pedestrian, ie agnostics and others trying to find their way down the Path on their own).
> Myself I think the multiplicity of Busses is a good thing. It provides variety and creates debates, which stimulate thinking and soul searching, which is key to spiritual advancment.

I think that diversity is good, too. Often, with different groups of people, views on many topics can be seen in many different ways, which, in turn, leads to new ideas and new ways of thinking about old things. Also, if religions clash in a peaceful way (as in discussing the various points of the religion, not the "THIS MEANS WAR!!!!" approach), both people tend to gain a greater respect of both the other's religion and their own, as they are forced to think about what makes their religion their religion. As Speedball said, thinking is the key to spiritual advancement.

Now, as for the road analogy, I guess that I'd fit in with the pedistrians. Does this mean that I oppose traffic and stand in the middle of the road to make everyone else stop and get off of their buses? No, of course not. If I did that, I'd get run over.

In fact, by talking with people from many different religions, I find that my own beliefs are not all that much different from anyone elses, nor are the beliefs of different religions very different either. For example, most relions tell us that we should respect one another. In the Christian religion, it is stated as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In the art of Wicca (a.k.a. Witchcraft) this same belief is stated as "The Threefold Law: Karma given out by the Witch will be returned to the witch threefold, be it good or bad." Of course, I need not remind everyone that witches are branded as evil because of their "Unorthedox faith".

> > > Brunnen-"the most useful and wise precept is Never Get Involved In A Religious Discussion, and I just broke it"G
> >
> > No, I especially enjoy hearing what you have to say. Accepting and considering the fruitful observations of an honest skeptic are necessary to keep faith from going crooked. A belief that strays too far -- from historical fact, and from factual aspects of currently-observable reality which any fool can objectively agree upon -- is frankly a belief in nothing but a lie. People often have a vested interest in shielding deeply cherished beliefs from outside attack; and so they get very touchy about this (which of course is why you suggest Never Get Involved in a Religious Debate, heh. ;-)

Yep. Few people seem to like others analyzing their religion in detail because, if they succeed in finding a flaw, the person could very easily begin to feel that his/her life is useless because he/she has been following a lie for so long.

> > To put it bluntly: if Christ did not arise from death, then my faith is worthless. It would be nothing but a colorful though pernicious superstition which does not have the grace to give up, grow up, and disappear under the fine light of reason. Should I ever find good cause to believe that Yeshua was NOT who he says he was, then I *will* drop Christianity instantly like the hottest potato. This is what's at stake. For now, though, I find -- to my amazement now that I think of it -- that I spend almost all my free time with the Scriptures and thinking and discussing about God.
> No, your faith wouldn't be pointless. Even is Christ was just a carpenters son, and a wise Rabbi, his leasons still hold true 2000 years later. Love thy neighbor as thy self, love thy enemy, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, these are all true statements.

This brings me to the start of another argument -- is the man really that important in the great scheme of things or is it the ideas that He represents? If you found out one day that Christ did not, in fact, arise from the dead, does this mean that you will dispose of all the ideas that Christ represents? I doubt it, for the ideas that Christ teaches are important regardless if the man was fact or fiction. Those ideas are ingrained within you, and can not be seperated without completely changing who you are.

> > Wolf "Nothing is so shocking as seeing the Christian faith doubted, or seeing it practiced" spirit
>
> Speed'The trouble with Christianity, they took a good idea and built a belife stucture on it.--- What JC can't stand is the s*th that get carried out in his name---Dogma, Kevin Smith'ball
>
> P.S.
> As you can see, I think a sense of humor is also key to keeping to the Path, if you can laugh at something you are less likely to get in a fight over it. I'd rather share a good belly laugh with a Muslim, a Jew and a Hindu than kill each other.

Aye, I can't think of a world without humor. Humor in itself is like a language unto its own. Heck, you can say the stupidist and/or most contraversial things as long as you both know that you don't mean it. And, upon saying such a thing in good humor, it will tend to make the other person think about any truth behind what was said rather then make the other think about ways to destroy you.

-Ka"Yes, after saying all that I still say that I'm not religious."z!