> > > The st. louis USA thread has built up quite a disscution, with little old me seeming to be the extremist no one can realte to. So I felt like posting exactly what I belive in and explain each as I go along. Some of this is relgious, some of this is just my personla code, the things I try to live by. This is in no real order.
> > >
> > > The most important stuff in the Bible are the things Christ said, not who he his, not the miracles or the ressurection, just the things he said. this came to me from two places, one from a question my father asked, "If Jesus was just a man, would what he said be any less important" and the other was the Gosple of Tomas, which has no story, it is just a list of things Christ said. I realized reading that Gospel was that all the other stuff was the dog and pony show, Chirst was here to tell us to be nice to each other, the Beuatituds are more important than the ressurection, the ressurection was intended to get people to pay attedtion to the things he was saying.
> > >
> > > No object, word, book, local, or person is more sacred than any other. Only the concepts that they represent are sacred. The cross is just a great big wooded 'T', the shroud of Turin is a very old sheet, the Bible is just words, Jerulsim is a very old city in a Desert county. The Pope is a wise old Polish man. What is sacred are the ideas people, places, and things are invesed with by belivers. Only Ideas are trully sacred.
> > >
> > > Some Sacred Ideas
> > > Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. (they most important)
> > > To thyn own self be true. (Balances with the first one, a person should't loss themselves completly in the service of others)
> > > There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are drempt of in your philosphy (we don't know everything)
> > >
> > > Some Ideas that arn't really sacred but I live by
> > > With Great Power Comes Great Responibility (from Spider-Man, if you can fight you shoud defend those who can't, if your are intelegnt you shoud teach the ignorant, if you are rich you should look after the needy)
> > > The Prime Directive is Non-Interfearance (Balanced with above, know when you shoudln't help, even if you can. This is tricky)
> > > Violence is the last refuge of the incompetant (there is always another way)
> > > Imagination is more important than logic (never get to serious for your own good)
> > >
> > > There, I needed to say that.
> > >
> > > Spider-anymaythedebatbegin-Boy
> >
> > I don't know that I want to start a debate about this, but I do disagree about a couple of things you said. Jesus' whole life, from conception to ressurection and still today, was and is all part of a divine plan. I don't pretend to understand that plan, but I do feel that everything Jesus did, from what he said, to the miracles he preformed, to his death, burial and ressurection all holds relavance for us today. His miracles were what proved what he was saying was true, and therefore *they* were what he used to "Get people to pay attedtion to the things he was saying" as you put it.
> >
> > You said that it was what he said that was important... not who he was. Well, He said He was the Son of God. Now is that not important? If you believe what he said, and hold it to be important, then you have to conceed that who He is *is* important, and is just as important now as it was then, right?
> >
> > The ressurection holds an extreme importance because it is in the ressurection that he defeated Satan. If he had died, and not risen again what would have been the point? He had to rise again, and make that known to man, to prove that there had *not* been any "Dog and pony show" but that he had actually accomplished all he had been sent here to do.
> >
> > As for the other stuff you comment on I can somewhat agree with all of it except for the Bible being "Just words." If you hold the second greatest commandment Jesus gave (The first being "Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind)in such high accord, and it is listed in the Bible, then how can you consider that book to be just words?
> >
> > Matthew starts out by saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus became the words of God (not even going to get into the Trinity)when he came to Earth to live as one of us. His life and ministry have been recorded as early in the Bible as Genesis and He is the main focus throughout. So then how can it be just a collection of words if He is the main focus?
> >
> > I'm not trying to condemn what you believe. You sound like you have some solid beliefs and you have every right to that. I'm glad that you have the conviction to stand up for what you believe and feel more people should (myself included.) All I'm doing here is showing you how alike we are in our beliefs and yet how different still.
> >
> > Drac
>
> What I'm saying is that words can be missinturpited, mistranslated, or twisted. A person needs to dig beneath the dogma of what ever faith they belive in to discover what the core is. My desistion that who Christ is isn't has important as his message comes from the question my Dad asked. If Christ wasn't the son of God, is what he said any less relevent? No, what he said would still be important. That was also something I got from the Gospel of Thomas, being only compsed of what Christ said. No story, no nativity or crusifixtion, no miracles, no explainations, only the teachings of a wise man recorded by one of his students. For some reason I feel more of a conection to the Divine when reading that list of quotes than when I read the four cannon Gospels. I also feel that I should note that Christ referd to himself as the Son of Man far more often than the Son of God.
>
> Is the Trinity realy in the Bible or was that the result of the interpratation of Biblical scholars and theologists? I remeber Christ saying he is the son of God, I don't remeber him saying he is God, and the Holy Spirit seems to be a something between an Angle and God, but seprate from God. I don't know to much about it I will admit.
>
> Spider-anyoneherewithtwoearshadbetterlisten-Boy

I certainly understand what you're saying, and as I said before I agree with most of it. What Jesus taught would have been just as important if He had *not* been the Son of God. But since He *is* then you can't seperate the two and say one is not as important as the other.

Like you I will admit to not knowing all about God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, or the Trinity in general, but I do know a little about what the Bible says. The Bible never uses the word Trinity. And it *is* a result of interpretation, but I feel it is a correct intrepretation. Genesis 1:2 says that the "Spirit of God moved upon the waters." This already points to two seperate entities, both being God (God in Heaven, and God in Spirit on Earth.)

I was wrong... it is John *not* Matthew that says:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And verse 14 says:

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So with this we have "The Word *was* God" and "The Word *became* flesh." This clearly points to a third part of God. Which actually fits in quite nicely with the cloning dicussion we have been having. Three seperate entities, all sharing one common identity, yet having 3 seperate identities besides.

As for Jesus saying he were the Son of Man more often than the Son of God... all I have to say about that is to ask you if it would have made it any less true if he had only said it once? He *was* the Son of Man per the virgin birth, so this is definately true, and a whole lot easier to fathom than the Son of God. I suspect this is one reason why he referred to himself as such on more occassions. He was talking to the sons of men. If he had not talked to people on their level he would have been defeating himself.

Again, I am not trying to attack, criticise, or undermine your beliefs. I am not saying *you* are wrong and *I* am right. If anything I respect you for standing behind your convictions. It has been a hard thing for me to do. Something I am still having trouble with. I just needed to make my points known along side yours.

And I hope I am not offending ANYONE who reads this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Something I will defend vigorously for anyone. Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, whatever. Everyone has that right. I believe the way I believe. Agree with it or not that's OK.

Drac