> > > > More impressive to me than any idea of an omnipotiant being who can do anything he wants to is that humans, a fragil conflicted and often confussed species has visited the moon, sent satalites out of our solar system, and we're still going.
> > >
> > > What's it all amount to in the end? In a hundred years, we'll all be dead. In a thousand, the world will be unrecognizable to us, and only two or three out of a billion will be remembered. In a million, forget it. A million years -- a billion years -- is all the same in the expanse of eternity. I'm not saying that life is futile, for I believe God put us on this earth to live productive, helpful, and loving lives, but without God, those accomplishments of which you speak do not impress me.
> >
> > We may only remeber Ceaser, but with out the men of his army he would be nothing. For every great man there are hundreds who helped him. Besides personal greatness isn't what I'm talking about. So we don't remeber the first person to control fire, we still have been building on that.
> > >
> > > > We keep reaching, we thrive under pressure. Did you ever see the Truman Show? I think humanity is getting to the point were we are standing at the door, ready to set out on our own, and we have to decide if we want to stay with our over protective father or be free.
> > >
> > > The "god" in The Truman Show and "God" in real life have very little to do with each other. God created us free. We *are* free. You've heard the saying -- set them free, and see if they come back to you? God did that right from the start. That's why sin is a part of the world right now. God created us with free will because he didn't *want* automatons following him (and nor would we want that, right?). But like any prodigal children, it is the right and just thing to return.
> >
> > The prodigal son left prematurely, so he returned. But one day he and his brother will have to move on with out the support of their father.
>
> I've been trying to read between the lines of this particular discussion. I think what I see here is, in fact, an unconscious expression of fear of God -- fear that God might indeed really truly be an all-mighty, all-loving God, beyond all comprehension. You see, you bring up earthly examples of man's achievements... that we have walked on the moon; that Caesar built his greatness upon those who came before him and who rallied to him; that the prodigal son will always leave the nest, as it were, and strike out on his own. Implicit in these examples is the idea that we accomplish these things by "pulling up ourselves by our own bootstraps" and, by logical extension, someday we'll outgrow the need for God and have no need to continue using him as a emotional crutch, thank you very much.
>
> The difficulty is, of course, that that will never happen. It is mere wishful thinking. All that we do, and all our greatest accomplishments are nothing -- a drop in the bucket -- compared to what God has done in all Creation. And that is because none of us have the standpoint of God in eternity. Humans cannot even reliably create careful, multi-generational experiments that last as little as 200 years, because our individual lifetimes are too short and we are too impatient. Humans are *still* experimenting with effective forms of self-government and "democracy", for pete's sake. Our minds are profoundly limited: how can anyone ever attain a stature of might equal to God's? Sometimes, it appears we're too dense to realize that fact, when we fail to turn to him as a source of unlimited strength...
>
> I see the basic problem here is that "our world" seems greater and more real than God. The fictions we create on TV and in the movies are far "more real" than God himself. There are comic books, the Truman show, and the new X-Files season which all clamor to grasp our attention. It is fashionable today to go-with-the-flow and believe Hollywood's cynical conceptions of God's "obvious" frailties, and rely on movie interpretations to explain away or vilify God's apparent theological shortcomings.
>
> Look. What is more important in the long run -- eternity with God, or the transient fad of the moment? Every person in every culture has a God-shaped hole yawning in the background of conscious awareness, and only God can fill this void. Even the person who denies God, saying that this world shows a very poor reflection of God's goodness and, therefore, "God must not exist except in our own imaginations," is unconsciously comparing our imperfect world against some internal yardstick of Absolute Perfection. But from whence, pray tell, do we *get* this neurologically-programmed standard of perfection? From GOD himself, because he programmed the concept of God into us, duh! What it boils down to is this: all activities that we are prone to overindulge in because they are "fun" (TV, casual sex, gluttony, substance abuse, even computer games and Internet surfing) will always be pale, hollow substitutes for the act of loving God. And if we love God at the source, from him we can draw strength to love each other, with true constancy in the way Sam described.
>
> Wolfspirit
>
> BTW I notice that you have numerous biblical references in your comments, so it's obvious you're quite familar with this topic. Please, feel free to rip into everything I've said. I welcome it.

I would Wolfsprite, but both me and Sam have preaty much come to the realization we arn't going to budge each other and grow tired of tring. We agree to dissagree and just go on being friends. Besides I was thinking to much, and thats not what I come to rinkworks to do. I respect you and Sam and Chris and who ever else was arguing with me here but I still stand by what I said. Humanity is growing, slowly, but we are maturing, milleina from now we may have grown to be Gods equal.

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