> To be honest with you, it sounds to me like you
>guys are constructing elaborate systems of rules to
>justify declaring your opinions as objective truth.
>I've just been discussing this with Dave, and
>basically what it comes down to is that I deny your
>major premise: while I do think it's possible to
>outline (at least mostly-)objective standards of
>film quality, I do *not* think for even a second
>that it's possible to declare objective standards
>of film *enjoyability.*

For the record, my stance is that there are no objective standards of "goodness" for movies, or really for any artform. Objectivity implies that every person would agree about the issue. No sane person would deny the results of a truly objective measurement such as those provided by measuring tapes or scales or clocks (barring malfunctioning or defective equipment or reletivistic changes in length, mass, or time that are not relevant to the discussion here.) However, you'll never get everyone to agree on whether or not Casablanca is the greatest movie of all time. Just the fact that we even have anything to discuss about a list of the "Best X Movies of All Time" proves my point. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Ferrick had posted a list of "Tallest Buildings in the World" or "The 50 Longest Movies." Those are objective measurements. You can't argue with them. Art is subjective. That's why we can argue it.

Whenever I argue this point, somebody always comes back with "But you can objectively measure certain things in a movie!" Then they'll try to get me to say that there's any sane person on the planet who would argue that the special effects in Plan 9 From Outer Space were better than those in E.T. or something like that. Hey, yeah, that's great. Next let's argue who had the neater handwriting, Mark Twain or Charles Dickens, because it's exactly as relevant to discussing the relative merits of Huckleberry Finn and Oliver Twist. In the final form, art can be more or less than the sum of its parts.

Anyway, I'm not entirely certain I agree with Darien that Sam and Stephen were trying to argue that there are objective standards of "enjoyability" either. I think instead they were just trying to point out what an incredible nub he is for liking Rocky Horror.

-- Dave